Two Days in Istanbul: Meeting with Scholars

Mahfuz Ahmad

Day one: 24th June, Saturday

Arrival

We (myself, our brother Farhad, and my two brothers-in-law Maulana Jamil Ahmad Sayadi and Mustafa Zaman) reached Istanbul on Saturday 24th June at 5:20 in the morning and arrived at a hotel in Sulaymaniyah. The car we took from the airport to the hotel was booked via booking.com. The experience was not so great; I suggest booking transport via the actual hotel or Uber. We reached the hotel around 6:40-7:00 AM and rested.

Meeting with Dr. Ḥamzah al-Bakrī

The first meeting was scheduled with Dr. Hamzah al-Bakrī. We left the hotel at 10 AM and walked for around twenty minutes to the meeting point at Ibn Khaldun University (Darul Ḥadīth Campus). There were many Scholars’ offices on the campus, including the office of Sheikh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah. 

Hamzah al-Bakrī’s father comes from Palestine and his mother is Jordanian. He was brought up in Jordan, where he had his education. Thereafter, he went to Kuwait and taught there. He is now settled in Istanbul and teaches at Ibn Khaldun University. Hamzah al-Bakrī is appreciated for his knowledge of ʿAqīdah, ʿIlm al-Kalām and Ḥadīth. When he speaks and writes it is in a very unique and eloquent manner. He is involved in the secular academic field but holds firmly to traditional values.

This was my fourth time meeting him and it was actually the day he planned to go to Jordan with his family but Alhamdulillah, he still made time to meet me. Dr. Hamzah al-Bakri has helped me with many of my projects. Once, for my work on ‘Kitāb al-Raḍā’ I was stuck on the sand of a Ḥadīth. Upon messaging him, he responded back to me with a four-page answer. Another time, he proposed shortening the original title of my edited book to the title it is now: al-‘Amālī ʿalā Sunan Abī Dāwūd.’ 

Questions and answers with Dr. Hamzah al-Bakrī

During the conversation, I asked some of the questions which I had prepared for him:

1. What challenges do we have in regard to Ḥadīth from the West?

We are challenged in regards to the Sunnah in the time of the Messenger ﷺ – was it something that existed in that time or did it come later? We find that Harold Motzki – an orientalist – proved the Sunnah to be from the time of the Prophet ﷺ from his study of Muṣannaf ʿAbdur Razzāq. The second challenge is the opposition against the ṣaḥābah.

2.         Can you recommend some authors who are dealing with the modern approach to Ḥadīth?

Sheikh Hamzah mentioned five names. Before mentioning the names, he stated that the individuals are reliable in this regard but not as a whole: Sheikh Sharīf Hātim al-ʿAwnī, Muḥammad Zarhiyyū. (He authored a book, wherein he combines the answers to accusations made against  Imām Bukhari by Orientalists and modernists), Dr. Nabīl Balhi, Dr. Jonnathon Brown (although some of his opinions are contentious, he has done some good research in the field of Ḥadīth), and Dr ʿIṣām ʿIdu whom I know personally (In 2019 when my book, ‘Fawāʾid al-Muntaqah’ was published, he did a four-week course on my book in a madrasah for students and teachers. I had asked him for suggestions on my book and he suggested adding the context of the statements of Kashmīrī.)

I then asked him why he did not include the likes of Sheikh Muṣṭāfa Sibāʿī and Sheikh Muṣṭafā al-Aʿẓamī in this list. Sheikh Hamza al-Bakrī responded by saying that their arguments are no longer sufficient to respond to new questions coming from modern-day orientalists. Despite this, their works provide a good foundational understanding of the topic and can therefore be read by beginners. However, works by the above five authors should be referenced by more experienced students and scholars. 

3.        What would you advise on my teaching of Tirmidhī?

When you teach Ḥadīth, you must have two different challenges in mind: 

1.  La Madhabiyyah – This is because the La Madhabiyyah movement seeks to abandon 1400 years of fiqh. The Ḥadīth should be taught in a manner wherein students understand why the difference of opinion between scholars occurred. This point serves to emphasise the importance of studying comparative fiqh in combating the accusations made by the la madhabiyyah. 

2.     Modernism, feminism, etc. – Students should be familiar with contemporary discussions on the science of Ḥadīth, and should be equipped with the tools to be able to refute the arguments made by modernists. 

He also mentioned dividing my whole year before teaching, focusing on certain aspects of the kitāb and providing the students with the main themes; to go into detail about certain Ḥadīth and not all. When coming across a Ḥadīth that is disputed, highlight both sides of the argument. 

4.     Why do we not see much contribution from the ʿUthmānī scholars in Ḥadīth scholarship?

Uthmānī scholarship came from Khurasān as a continuation. For the first two centuries, in Khurasān, there were great scholars of Ḥadīth and then slowly Ḥadīth studies started becoming less prevalent in those areas. Scholars started focusing more on ʿilm al-kalām, philosophy, fiqh, and usūl al-fiqh, etc. Had they been connected to scholars from areas wherein Ḥadīth studies were prevalent such as Egypt and Syria, the Uthmānī scholars would have been connected to Ḥadīth too. 

5.      The ʿUthmāni sultāns would kill their siblings, why is that? Fatwa was even given on this.

Firstly, we disagree with the fatwa. Secondly, it was not a practice of all the sultāns but rather during the reign of one or two sultāns. The people who did this actually misinterpreted the story of Khiḍr (AS) of killing a young boy in order to legislate the killing of the siblings.  Thirdly, it could have been done for a legitimate reason (some sort of need).

6.       What are the pieces of advice you would give to the female ʿĀlimāt/Ṭālibāt? How can they do the khidmah of Ḥadīth?

1. Our students must realise and believe that our study is not the same as the study of other institutions. We study to practise it in our life. Our education and private life should coincide.
2. Motivate people through the narration of stories that highlight the beautiful aspects of Islam to incline them towards the religion. 
3. They should be involved in responding to the questions posed by modernists/feminists etc. with practical examples from the history of Islam.
4. Look forward to being a mother and training children in a way that they become good Muslims. Mothers should aspire to sow the seeds of love for Islam in their children’s hearts by incorporating the dīn into every moment of their lives. 
5. Take the responsibility to respond to feminists in particular. It is more effective for female scholars to respond to these arguments. 

7.        What would you advise for myself?

It is unique that you are reviving the works of the scholars of the subcontinent of India. Due to this, we are finding out more about the scholars there, especially Kashmīrī. Continue your work in this field for there is great benefit in it for Arab scholars.

8.        I really want to gain ijāzah from Shaykh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah but he dislikes it. Can I ask for it?

Because you met him once and you are continuously producing work, it may allow you to have a better chance to get an Ijāzah from Shaykh. However, do not bring up the topic of Ijāzah. Speak to Shaykh and give him the book as a hadiyah and right before the majlis departs, then request the ijāzah and see what he says.

Meeting with Muḥammad Fātiḥ Qāya and Dr. Aḥmad Snobar

The next two scholars I met were Muḥammad Fātiḥ Qāya (a student of ʿAbdul Fattāḥ Abū Ghuddah) and Dr. Aḥmad Snobar. I had contacted them both separately to meet them, but Alhamdulillah, they both found out and decided to meet me together in Taqiyah, Uzbek Khanqah Üsküdar in an open area under the trees. We engaged in a discussion for around an hour and a half.

Shaykh Fātiḥ Qāya mentioned that he knew me from my book Madkhal ila kitāb al-Hidāyah, which was surprising since most people know me for my works on Kashmīrī.

Questions and answers with Muḥammad Fātiḥ Qāya and Dr. Aḥmad Snobar

1. What challenges do we have in regard to Ḥadīth from the West?

Aḥmed Snobar said we need to first establish the definition of Ḥadīth. The job of a muḥaddith is like the job of a muʾarrikh (Historian). I first heard this analogy from my Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim teacher: Mawlana Maḥmūdur 

Raḥmān. He had quoted it from Mawlana Manāzil Aḥsan Gilānī’s work. I went to the library after hearing this from him, as I always did whenever I heard a quote. I found it in the Urdu book Tadwīnu Ḥadīth; the author of which was a student of  Kashmīrī. 

A person who believes in history should believe in Ḥadīth as well. If you ask people about the best way to confirm history; the Orientalists would claim archaeological findings are more reliable than oral transmission (e.g. Ḥadīth). Imagine a lecture is delivered by a professor who is well-versed in politics. The students heard this lecture and passed the information orally to the next generation. On the other hand, a layman writes down his own observations about the political situation of the time. How can we give preference to the layman’s observations and neglect expert information simply because it does not exist in physical form? How can we give importance to archaeological evidence from an unknown source over the opinion of an expert (a known source)? This parable sums up the problem with Western academia and their view of sources. 

He also said we need to build an alternative version of Western academia and a place where we can study Ḥadīth as a muʿarrikkh, not like a faqīh. We need to understand that a muḥaddith is not a faqīh; their job is to establish the history of the Ḥadīth and to confirm if this is the statement of the Prophet (ﷺ). 

I responded, yes I do remember in your article (Modern Ḥadīth Studies) that you do not really like Albānī’s uṣūl al-Ḥadīth method of dealing with Ḥadīth, He replied, yes, people are greatly influenced by him.  For example, Nūr al-Dīn al-ʿIṭr was a great scholar but was influenced by Albānī’s approach to Ḥadīth. I can only tell you about one individual who was not influenced by Albānī, that is Sheikh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah. Nūr al-Dīn al-ʿIṭr became subconsciously influenced through Albānī’s books. On the other hand, Sheikh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah did not read his books and that is why his focus is completely attached to the original method of looking at Ḥadīth. It is rare to find scholars who rely more on earlier scholars. 

Dr. Hamzah al-Bakrī published a book at the beginning of this year: Māhiyah ʿUlūm al-Ḥadīth which explains three approaches to Ḥadīth:

1.   Complete reliance on Muṣṭalaḥ al-Ḥadīth. For example, Albānī

2.   Complete negligence of Muṣṭalaḥ al-Ḥadīth. For example, Dr. Ḥamza Mallibārī

3.   A combination of both. For example, Zāhid al-Kawtharī and ʿAbdur Raḥmān Muʿallimī 

2.           How do we help our young students become confident about Ḥadīth?

Aḥmad Snobar mentioned that a muḥaddith’s job is the same as a muʾarrikh. We need to focus on the following two:

1.   Theory perspective (Naẓarīyyah):

a.                    E.g. The method of takhrīj or looking for ʿIlal al-Ḥadīth

2.   Practical perspective (Taṭbīq)

a.                    Students should read books on ʿIlal al-Ḥadīth and Naqd and tasks should be handed out to the students 

Shaykh Fātiḥ Qāya mentioned three things:

1.   When we are teaching Ḥadīth, we should first try to understand the level of the students. 

2.   We should consider the 10 advice of  ʿAllāmah Zāhid al-Kawtharī

There are ten suggestions, in actuality. However, they can be summarised into the following  five from Maqālāt al-Kawtharī:

·         Each institution should have a research room where all resources of Ḥadīth are gathered. Each student can be given a topic and they should be able to research these topics within the research rooms. The topics could be a means of defending the Sunnah and rebuking the claims made by orientalists regarding the Ḥadīth. 

·         When Ḥadīth is being studied, they should not ignore the Sanad. When students are studying the Sanad, they should learn the biography and background of the narrators and should have a basic understanding of whether the narrators are thiqah or not. 

·         Uṣūl of Ḥadīth should be taught carefully and separately so that the students are well equipped when studying the actual Ḥadīth.

·         The following should also be studied: Mawḍūʿ Ḥadīth, Mursal Ḥadīth, al-Fiqh al-Muqāran (Comparative Fiqh) as well as Maghāzī (the expeditions embarked upon by Rasūlullāh ﷺ ) in order to defend the Sunnah and the battles. 

·         Besides formal lessons, a Madrasah should deliver lectures on certain issues and topics related to Ḥadīth so that students can have a wide understanding of the subject. 

3.      In terms of fiqh al-Ḥadīth, Sunan al-Thirmidhī, and Sunan Abū Dāwūd should be sufficient, or just Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim, but the former two are better.

Meeting with Shaykh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah

They then dropped us off at the seaside. Dr Aḥmad Snobar could not stay as he had to drop off Hamzah al-Bakrī at the airport. We ate lunch and prayed Ẓuhr thereafter. We then went to the residence of Shaykh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah at exactly 6:30 PM. So far, I have attempted to meet the Shaykh a total of four times, succeeding twice and failing twice. My success was dependent on the timing of my booking the trip; the later I booked it the better. The Shaykh’s house is located in Üsküdar in a very quiet location. When we went there we saw Dr Aḥmad Snobar and ʿĪṣām ʾIdū coming out. I kissed Shaykh Awwāmah’s hand which is the traditional Arab way of greeting, even though he was very modest and refused, but I know my way around these situations. He made me sit next to him. I felt quite scared when I went, it is the fear you feel when you are before someone so amazing but he made me feel very comfortable. He said, Masha Allah, my son gave me a number of your books a few days ago and one of them is Kitāb al-Raḍāʿ. One of the titles in the book drew my attention: Walāʾid al-Qurūn al-Ūla (literary productions of the first century). My question is, where are the other books? At this point, I felt so scared that the Shaykh was pointing out a fault. I replied that the publisher wrote the title and not myself. The Shaykh said, I was amazed by it and thought it was you who did it and I was going to get all of the books. I said I will try to ask the publisher if they could give the books to you. Thereafter I mentioned that we had come just to meet him as we benefited immensely from his work and wished to be in his presence. The  Shaykh then started to speak about the following duʿāʾ : 

    اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ عِلْمًا نَافِعًا، وَرِزْقًا طَيِّبًا، وَعَمَلًا مُتَقَبَّلًا

He mentioned a few points about the duʿāʾ:

1. ʿIlm nāfiʿ: We need beneficial knowledge; knowledge which benefits you and your community. There are three possible types of ʿIlm : Ilm Nāfiʿ, Ilm Ḍārr, and ʿIlm which is neither of the two. The shaykh said to avoid the last two. The last type of ʿilm is a waste of time as it gives you no form of benefit. 
2. Rizq Ṭayyib: Without it, our upbringing will not be correct and we will not be able to attain beneficial knowledge.
3. ʿAmal Mutaqabbal: Anyone can do amal, but if this amal isn’t accepted, then it is a waste of actions. This is why we make duʿāʾ for Allāh ﷻ to accept our efforts. 

The Shaykh then said to me to make this duʿāʾ after every Ṣalāh and to advise my students to do so too. At this point, he seemed to be getting tired, but he said that speaking about ʿilm gives him energy again; it is just that afterward, he feels tired. So I proceeded to discuss my new work ‘Al-Amālī ʿalā Sunan Abū Dāwūd’ and mentioned my trip to Bangladesh to collect the manuscript of ʿAllamah Kashmīrī. The Shaykh remembered my book ‘al-Fawāʾid al-Muntaqāh’ at this point he commended the work, explaining that it provides a comprehensive overview of Kashmīrī’s method and contribution to the Ḥadīth sciences. I presented my editorial work (Al-Amālī) to him and he was really happy. I also informed the Shaykh that these notes were when ʿAllāmah Kashmīrī was 40 years old.

Thereafter, his son (Muḥyī al-Dīn) came as half an hour had already passed (my meeting was supposed to be 15 minutes). Shaykh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah and his son looked into my book and found one issue: the Ḥadīth were not numbered. I mentioned that it was the publisher who decided not to put the numbers in as not every Ḥadīth of the book was included in Al-Amālī. But both father and son insisted that the Ḥadīth should be numbered. The Shaykh made a lot of duʿāʾ for me. 

As the Majlis seemed like it was ending and the shaykh was standing up, I asked for Ijāzah. He sat back down. He sat down, did ḥamd, and recited Ḥadīth Musalsal bi al-Awwaliyyah and he gave Ijāzah to me and one other individual who was with me. He gave me Ijāzah for everything with 6 pieces of advice:

1. ʿAmal bil ʿIlm: We should understand that ʿilm is just a gateway to the purpose of our life (it is a waṣīlah)
2. Tathabbut fī al-ʿilm: Before we say or write anything we need to make sure we have verification of the information
3. Muwāṣalah bi ṭalab al-ʿIlm: Learning should never stop and we should always remain students of knowledge 
4. Ḥifẓ karāmah al-ʿIlm: Do not consider ʿilm as a tool/means to achieve the dunya, maintain the dignity of the ʿIlm 
5. Duʿāʾ: The shaykh requested to make lots of duʿāʾ for him. The fifth piece of advice (duʿāʾ) was meant to be the last but Shaykh ʿAwwāmah remembered the last advice suddenly: 
6. Do not forget the following three duas:

a.                     اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَسْأَلُكَ عِلْمًا نَافِعًا، وَرِزْقًا طَيِّبًا، وَعَمَلًا مُتَقَبَّلًا

b.                    رَبَّنَا لاَ تُزِغْ قُلُوبَنَا بَعْدَ إِذْ هَدَيْتَنَا وَهَبْ لَنَا مِن لَّدُنكَ رَحْمَةً إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْوَهَّابُ : to be read in the third rakʿāt of maghrib before going down to rukūʿ

c.                    اللَّهُمَّ لَكَ سَجَدَ سَوَادِي وَبِكَ آمَنَ فُؤَادِيْ اللَّهُمَّ ارْزُقْنِيْ عِلْمًا يَنْفَعُنِيْ وَعَمَلًا يَرْفَعُنَيْ: ʿAbdullāh b. ʿUmar would say this duʿāʾ in his sajdah 

Meeting with Dr. Muḥyī al-Dīn ʿAwwāmah:

After Shaykh Muḥammad ʿAwwāmah left, we had a meeting with his son: Muḥyi al-Dīn ʿAwwāmah, whom I have met four times. 

This is advice from my meeting with him in February 2022:

1. When you publish your books try and get your book published with one publisher as its easier for the readers 
2. You should visit Uzbekistan; they need to see the people of Iman as they have Iman in their hearts but it just needs to come out physically      

The Shaykh also gave me a number of books including:

1. Riḥlah Uzbekistān
2. Ṣafaḥāt al-Muḍīʾah 
3. Al-Masāʾil al-Uṣūliyyah 
4. Manhaj al-Qāḍī ʿIyāḍ
5. ‘The Story’: a small booklet of his own son (Muhammad ʿAwwāmah Jr) 

I asked him if he was working on any projects under Sheikh ʿAwwāmah. He said they’re working on the following:

1. The making of a new copy of Sunan al-Tirmidhī using around 120 manuscripts from around the world; funded by Ibn Khaldūn University. They initially chose to work on 20 copies and thereafter narrowed it down to 7 manuscripts. In their introduction: they worked heavily on the aqwāl of Imam Thirmidhī as it usually differs between different copies of Tirmidhī. They are also using 40 more books that quote Sunan al-Tirmidhī for further accuracy. Within this project, they found that 198 narrators were ḍaʿīf yet Imam Tirmidhī quotes the narrations as Ṣaḥīḥ and so they included the reasons as to why this was the case
2. The Ḥadīth of Hidāyah based on Nasb al-Rāyah, al-Dirāyah of Ibn Ḥajar, Munyah al-Maʿī, and some other early works
3. Work on Fayḍ al-Qadīr of ʿAbdur Raʾūf Manāwī     
4. Taḥqīq of Al-Shifāʾ  of Qāḍī ʿIyāḍ

Muḥyī al-Dīn’s work Tawḍīḥ Muṣtalaḥ al-Ḥadīth was also due to be printed in a few days; aimed at the beginner students of ʿIlm al-Ḥadīth. 

We then came back to our hotel and rested.

Day two: 25th June Sunday

Meeting with Sheikh ʿAbdul Ḥamīd Turkumānī

He and his brother ʿAbdul Majīd are well-known scholars from Iran. They both studied in Pakistan and had the privilege of being taught by Mufti Taqī Uthmāni in their Bukhārī year. They then did Takhasṣuṣ in the field of Ḥadīth. ʿAbdul Majīd stayed in the field of Ḥadīth and wrote many books, but is best known for: Al-Madkhal ila ʿUṣūl al-Ḥadīth and Dirāsah fī uṣūl al-Ḥadīth ʿalā manhāj al-Ḥanafiyyah. He currently lives in Iran and teaches there. ʿAbdul Ḥamīd went into Philosophy and Kalām and attained citizenship in Turkey. 

We were to meet him in a research centre called ISAM in Üsküdar at 10:00 AM. It was a Qurbani holiday that weekend and was very quiet. In this centre, they translate works and edit books mainly based on ʿAqīda and Kalām. They have one of the biggest libraries full of Arabic Islamic books. They also have rooms that can be hired by scholars to work on their own personal or sponsored projects.

He specifically is not working for ISAM but had a room there. He allowed us to tour the library. 

We then left ISAM and went to an uphill area where Ottoman princes and princesses would spend their summers. We went to a cafe there and discussed a few things including the need to revive the knowledge of philosophy etc. 

Meeting with Maulana Ilyās Ghumman

1. Do you think La Madhabiyyah is about to disappear?

He said it is not disappearing but getting more problematic. He added that in my opinion, Shaykh Sudais -with his huge popularity- is helping in the spreading of La Madhabiyyah. For instance, the establishment of ten rakʿāt tarawīḥ which is not practised in any madhhab. He further mentions that the non-believers are scared of two things in Islam: Jihād and Khilāfat.

Mawlānā Ilyās said in order to tackle La Madhabiyyah we should work in such ways that we do work to help the community understand the dangers of La Madhabiyyah. La Madhabiyyah cannot hurt the ʿUlamāʾ but they target the ʿawwām.

The Mawlāna has worked against La Madhabiyyah and the Qāḍiyāni. He once accompanied one of the great debaters in Pakistan, Mawlana Amīn Safdar for two years continuously and saw how he dealt with propagandas and fitnahs.

2.      Turkey follows the Hanafi madhab but despite that they don’t follow some hanafi rulings. for example, giving the adhān before zawāl al-Shams, giving the khuṭbah in their local language instead of Arabic, or praying ʿAṣr at mithl al-Awwal and not mithl al-thāni, why is that?

Mawlana only responded to the second example: as long as the khuṭbah has a few Arabic words then it is sufficient as a khuṭbah. Perhaps the Turks take this interpretation. Mawlana further said that due to reforms made by Ataturk and the ban on Arabic materials, scholars perhaps wanted to give the public more access to knowledge and so the khuṭbah was said in Turkish.  

Today, Turkey, due to Erdogan’s personality, is one of the best places in the world to continue religious activities. Mawlana Ilyās mentioned that in his experience of visiting many different countries, Turkey is the best country to carry out religious practices freely.

He also emphasised the concept of Ṣuhbah; staying close to theʿUlamāʾ. 

[This article is a transcription of the discussion of Maulana Mahfuz Ahmad’s ilmi tour to Istanbul, in June 2023. It was transcribed by his students at Madani Madrasah, London.]